Tara (00:56):
It's episode two of our Art of Estate Planning podcast and again, I am joined by Carrie and we are talking about the reasons why your client is not accepting your fee proposal. So why are they sitting on that quote that you sent out, Carrie? What's the longest time that someone has taken to accept a fee proposal you've sent out?
Carrie (01:23):
Tara didn't tell me to prepare for this question, but I honestly find people come back years later and it's not necessarily that they haven't accepted it, but sometimes they do accept it and then just never book in a meeting or estate planning is the slowest burn in terms of legal work that I think that there is out there. So I think maybe 18 months or two years might be the longest that someone's like, oh hey, remember that thing you sent us two years ago? Yeah, sorry we didn't get to it. Now let's do it. So yeah, I don't think it's necessarily a rejection per se, but just that it's not always front of mind for people.
Tara (02:01):
Totally. And I had written down in big caps on my notes for this slow burn, so I'm glad you said that. I've had the same years, I've changed law firms twice and before people come back to me and say, oh, we're ready to go ahead. It's wild. And I think the reason I chose this for our second topic is because I think it is such an important one to factor in and talk and normalise to help build confidence when it comes to setting your prices for estate planning because it is, as you said, one of those funny areas where there's not usually an immediate driver. It's not like, oh, I am being sued and I have to deal with this. It's so easy to put your head in the sand and you get a wind of motivation to go and sort out your will and then happens and something else gets tow to the top of your to-do list and you just think, oh yeah, next week, Tara.
Carrie (03:09):
For those that dunno, I had a previous life in dentistry, I was a children's dentist for 11 years and it happens a lot in dentistry as well. And I think the statement I learned when I worked there can be applicable to almost any type of professional services. Not everybody is ready, willing, or able to make the decisions and the changes that they need to make. And so they might be ready but they might not be willing or able. So I think that if you use those three phrases, it's not necessarily something that you've done wrong, it's just that they might not have the tools, whether it be physical, financial, mental tools at the moment to deal with that particular topic. So I think if we keep that in the front of our mind that even if we do all lack the best practise things and our pricing is great and they've accepted that that's what it's going to cost, not everybody is ready, willing and able to do the things they need to do.
Tara (04:01):
Yeah, absolutely. And I want to talk about some of the reasons that are probably actually the bigger reason that clients are not turning around and accepting your fee proposal right away that have nothing to do with price. Because look, your prices are probably perfect and when we are sitting there following up a client saying, are you going to go ahead? I think that as the lawyers, the thing that we jump to most is going, oh, the price is too high. I'm losing confidence in my pricing and that should not be the case. So I really just want us to talk about what a client's going through that has nothing to do with your price. That means they are going to take a little while to come back and accept your quote. So I'm going to say the first one I think is just our attention span and mental load.
Carrie (04:58):
You're preaching to very much a problematic person when it comes to reading. If it's not in the first sentence, I'm out. So I've got this on my notes as well for things to bring up. We absolutely eat with our eyes when I say that if we need to make sure the information is engaging and as a part of that engagement, we need to see very early on what are we actually in for? What is the bottom line? So I know when we send out all As lawyers, we have to send out all these horrible cost documents, disclosure and agreements, those sorts of things. But when I've seen some of those in practise, they're just horrible to read as an individual. And so I think that even if the client doesn't have a problem with the ultimate number, if they can't easily find the number or they can't easily find what the actual services that you're offering, it makes it really hard for them to say yes. They dunno what they're saying yes to. So when we as lawyers, even if the number's right, if we're not presenting the material in a way that is easy for them to digest, that includes, as you said, if the client is done within the first sentence like I am, we've got to find a way to present that that's readable for humans, not just lawyers.
Tara (06:11):
Yes, totally. I personally hate the cost agreement letters that our law societies send out as templates. I mean I've only really had a lot of experience with the Queensland version of it, but having the fees embedded somewhere on page three, it's just so hard to get a good sense of what it's going to cost and to feel confidence. So can I plug our price list in the TT precedents club, we do have beautiful price list templates where it's a shopping list or a menu at a restaurant where it's really clear and transparent about what the pricing is. There's package options even for different service levels. And if you know me, I'm a huge fan of taking that kind of approach when it comes to pricing your legal services as you said, Carrie, just to prove the communication and make it totally obvious right away what the price is and also to empower the client with some choice about what level of service they want and do they want the Rolls-Royce or just the Toyota Corolla version of the estate planning package.
(07:20):
So this is actually not meant to be about pricing in cost agreements, but I did just have to throw that in there and back to my initial point and yours, the mental load that we are all under at the moment, I feel like I'm getting an email and an update in the app every second day from my kids', different schools and daycares about Grandparents' Day and Father's Day and the Strawberry Farm excursion and this form for that. And I can't keep up with all of it. So then there's things in my inbox for my personal life that I'm just like, no, I'm tardy on, but there's nothing there pushing me to do them immediately. I've got to drive it forward and I'm just like, yeah, next month, next month.
Carrie (08:10):
Well, I think a lot of older generations bash our generation and younger because we do have the attention spans of a raccoon, but the reason we do is just the sheer volume of bloody paperwork. And when I say paperwork, I mean emails as well that we have to go through on a day-to-day basis. The information overload is huge as you said. So if it's not in that first sentence, I mean we're out. So I think that's really important.
Tara (08:36):
Send me an Instagram reel with the price,
Carrie (08:41):
A reason why they had TikTok videos that were shorts or they've got YouTube shorts. It is because you've got to catch us very, very quickly. And I think if you do your pricing in a way that does, it captures all generations. Of course, we're not just operating for 21 year olds. You have your fancy attention grabbing stuff at the start. And then for those people that are detail people, that's where you can come in underneath and do everything else.
Tara (09:06):
Yeah, I love that. I think something else that shouldn't be underestimated is all the feelings that estate planning can bring up. Look, we're up to episode two and we are already talking about feelings, but I don't think we can underestimate the internal work that some people have to go through for getting their estate planning sorted. There can be a lot of shame, insecurity, fear, uncertainty, worry that comes up through the estate planning process, whether it does require you to reflect where you are at your life. Actually, sorry, this is a long story, but it will come back around, it'll circle back where I've changed financial advisors recently and we had a planning meeting with them where they're sort of like, we'll, look at where you are now and we'll look at where we think we can take your or how your situation will improve and what add value we can add and what it'll be like in 20 years. And I said to them, I was like, this feels like I'm getting a report card for my life. I'm quite nervous. And because I was like, yeah, what had I hoped? I'm almost 40 next year. And I was like, yeah, what had I hoped for my life when I was 40 and how are we tracking? And it was confronting and it was great. It was a really positive experience, but I'm used to looking at all of that stuff. My finances aren't a surprise to me, but even then it felt confronting
Carrie (10:45):
And that's even when it's a positive kind of discussion as well. Really, it's so true. I have a client at the moment who has not got a great relationship with his adult children and it's been very upsetting for him. And so having to discuss around potentially whether he even leaves them anything, it is a slow burn with him because having to sit with that decision around does he leave something to his adult children or does he leave it all to the new spouse? And it is, I'm sort of discussing with him those concepts of might your position change if your position might change, maybe it's better that we give them something and what does that something look like? It's not an easy topic. Estate planning isn't just black and white for everybody. So if you are sitting there discussing what does the value of your relationship with your children look like on paper, that's huge.
Tara (11:36):
Or if you are not sure who can be your executives or guardians for your kids or trustees because you don't have close relationships with people, it's really confronting to have to sit down and firstly tell a near that and then secondly, make the decision or address something that isn't your ideal. I have a lot of empathy for people who have to go through that process. And so if you're just feeling generally, like you really have to dig deep and overcome a lot of discomfort, it's so easy to just ignore that quote and follow up email in the inbox. The other thing too is the way that I approach estate planning at least is I ask for all of the assets. I want to know what assets are in the estate, where they're going, how we're dividing it. I sort of said in the last podcast episode that we want to plan out the stress test allocation of assets and what it looks like. So again, if you are a little bit insecure about your financial position or it's not what you are hoping to be at this point in life, that's really confronting as well.
Carrie (12:50):
Yeah, I, I mean I always try this, this is me humour to cover up trauma, but I always try and make the conversation as light as possible, but there are some people who very much, it is a very serious discussion for them. Again, I had another client where they were riding out a sun because of some very serious things and the advisor and I were having some nice chit chat before the meeting and the client hadn't said very much and he just said, I just want to start talking serious stuff now. Immediately that was the first thing he'd kind of said. And so I think that we can try as practitioners to make the is accessible whether it be the right number, the right approach, the right room, but again, it's not necessarily a you issue. It can very much be like what we call money blocks. So I mean we've had that Facebook Live, Tara with Amy talking about how to work through some of those money blocks with clients.
Tara (13:48):
Those are absolutely huge and they really drive behaviour. Another sort of example of that I've written down is, again, it's not a problem with anything that we are doing as a lawyer, but there could be life events just getting in the way. For instance, a relationship breakdown or the couple is just not feeling very steady in their relationship at the moment or an individual who is entering into a new relationship and they're just not sure how things are going to be and where they want. Are they going to change or not? Do they want to do it for now? Do they want to have to come back and revisit it? And I've certainly been in that position where I was almost about to hit go on a strategy from a financial planner and then had a big bust up with my partner and it totally changed the direction of my life and I just could not make a decision and I was quite young and I kind of wish I had taken their advice and still acted anyway and I really wish that advisor had actually pushed me a bit more to do something.
(14:54):
But that's okay that you don't always have that relationship with people and professionals, especially in estate planning where it's like a new engagement and you don't have that relationship. So I'm not saying that as lawyers we have to be calling up and getting in people's business, but I think it's just we can appreciate that that could be something that's going on in someone's life and they are just stuck with indecision and they don't know what to do and there's too much uncertainty going on in the rest of their life that they can't make a decision about these key things just at the moment.
Carrie (15:28):
Absolutely. I think there was some, because we have in the TT precincts club, we have an exclusive Facebook page where it's only members of that community that can discuss different planning issues and I know that one member, so one lawyer had mentioned that they were getting a lot of traffic to their website, but not a lot of conversion. And I just thought when it comes to actual conversion, that website is the window to your service offering. I mean, the fact that you're getting people at your window is huge, number one, but the actual conversion isn't necessarily anything to do with anything you are doing wrong, whether it be pricing or marketing strategy. It's just that people might say, oh, I need to do a will, and they go and look at your website and then they think, oh, okay, I know what that is now I'll start saving up. Or I know what that price is now so I know it's there. Oh, oops, my child has just gone into hospital or, so I think that sometimes not, sometimes the answer more often than not is just that people might just be looking at you. They might be tyre kicking in some instances, but even if they're not tyre kicking, maybe they're just planning out to say That's where I'm going to go eventually, but I just need more time to get there.
Tara (16:40):
Yes, I'm actually in that exact situation right now with an outdoor kitchen purchase, so not quite the same, but I've been trying to buy this outdoor kitchen since February and it's five figures. It's a lot. And so yeah, firstly we're saving our whatcha are you cooking in a five figure kitchen, Tara? Low five figures. But yeah, it's not like an insignificant purchase and if I'm doing it, I want to do it properly and make sure I trust the organisation we are doing it with and there's quite a few logistical steps involved as well, and I've been uming and ing over the design and do we pay more to get the design I really want? And yeah, it's going to take at least six months before I hand over the deposit and pay lock it in, and it's got nothing to do with the quality of this outdoor kitchen or even the price, right? It's like I'm an ING over the design and is this really what we want? And then there's this whole silica artificial stone thing then life and it's been a wild six months. I don't know where the time's gone. So that's just taken a while and then we're working
Carrie (18:01):
And that's just a kitchen, Tara. This isn't like what could happen if you die. This isn't what legacy you're leaving for your children. Here's the outdoor kitchen that I spent. I think when you're talking about estate planning, it's okay to take your time.
Tara (18:15):
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you said about people saving up too. Anyone who saves up to do their estate plan is just deserving of so much admiration in my book. I love that so much. I'm sure we'll talk at some point about the DIY online wills and the cheap and nasty solution and anyone who does engage a qualified professional for that personalised service and goes to effort of saving up, I just respect that so much. I think it's beautiful.
Carrie (18:53):
Yeah, I mean I had one lady just this week say I sent her my scope of worker pricing and she said, Carrie, I've just had a blowout in my bathroom that's not going to be covered under insurance. I have to replace the whole shower. And she said, I just can't do this right now. I'll come back to you in a few months once I've got the money back again, I'm like, I'm so here for that because I don't have a spare five grand sitting there beside just for funsies, right? So I think it's totally normal, particularly in an current economy for young people to just say, Hey, I'm just going to take a little bit of time and I'm going to get that money instead.
Tara (19:28):
Yes, I love it. And you also mentioned shopping around, so let's talk about the marketing strategic decisions around this. So there is a lot of evidence out there that people really need to know and trust you before they will invest, especially if you are charging on that upper end of the scale for your testamentary trust services and estate planning services. So to make them know and trust you or to feel like they do, they have to hear from you something like seven different times. And I want to say that because I think we can lose our confidence a little bit. A lot of us are already feeling like we're really putting ourselves out there by doing our social media and our emails, or you might be there going, I should follow up this client, but am I annoying them? Do they really want to hear from me?
(20:26):
So I really just want to keep encouraging you to keep showing up and as Carrie said, it's a them problem, not a you problem and keep building up that profile. I think if you have a really strong personal brand and they keep seeing you showing up consistently and authentically, then the risk of people shopping around reduces a lot. And the decision changes from not saying, well, which lawyer am I going to use to do my estate plan? It's more about, well, when I do my estate plan, I'm going to use Carrie for instance. So it's more about the decision between doing the estate plan with Carrie or not doing it at all rather than comparing you to a competitor. And I think if you've got that strong personal brand, you are the obvious choice for them. They know that when they do it, they are going to work with you. It's just a matter of when am I going to do this and prioritise it? When will I get to the top of the pile?
Carrie (21:35):
I think that's really important about what you said before, Tara, about the personalization of it because I think a lot of current marketing stuff is talking about having your pricing available on your website, and I think that's totally valid, but I also think that there's still a personal element that needs to come into that. So when I get an inquiry, I'll always actually arrange a time just to have a quick 15 minute conversation with someone just saying, Hey, just letting you know this is me, this is my voice. So you've got a voice to match the name and the face and actually just sort of talk to 'em going on for you. And then that's before I even start the process of getting any details off them, any background, just because I think that there are so many online options now. So you've got to distinguish yourself a little bit to say, this is, I might be the exact same price as three other websites you've looked at, but have they actually picked up the phone and said, Hey, what are you doing? What's going on for you? How can I help you kind of thing. So I think that personalization is really important
Tara (22:33):
And in the age of the AI, DIY wheels and the commodification, I think that's what it was, the commodification of professional services and estate planning. I think the personal connection is something that can't be outsourced overseas. Your AI bot can't really replicate that, and that is going to be the thing that gets people to actually take the leap of faith and go through the process. So I think as much as you can show your personality and show up and keep connecting, it's going to make such a big difference. One other thing I've written down here, follow up emails. There's a money mentor that I have, her name is Denise stuff Thomas, so I say she's my mentor. It's a one-way relationship because I'm just in her programme. She doesn't know who I am, but I think she's my mentor, but she said, sorry, I was just fangirling. That's all this is. Yeah, I just changed my life. I love it. The study of financial behaviour has been so insightful for, and also in terms of understanding our clients, but one of the things that she says is the fortune is in the follow-up, which means you just have to keep showing up and saying that you are ready when they're ready and reminding them, and maybe you have to remind them four or five times, but then they will go ahead. So yeah, the fortune is in the follow up.
Carrie (24:08):
That's so interesting, Tara. I mean, I'm just thinking about another opinion to that and I'm not a specialist, so I'm sorry Mrs. Duffield something just to present the alternative argument to that, I've always found that the people you chase, you're chasing the whole matter the entire time. If you have to chase them from the front end, you are constantly chasing them. And so once they're actually engaged as a lawyer, my little brain turns on and thinks they're now in mine and I now have to say all these horrible things to them. And so I just wonder, maybe it's me speaking to my 20-year-old self that you don't chase people, you'll be chasing them your whole life. But I just wonder, that's an interesting thought to say that the fortune's in the follow-up because I'd always operate on the basis that if you're chasing them, you're going to chase them the entire time.
Tara (24:55):
Yeah, look, it totally depends. I think it also depends how keen you are to be honest.
Carrie (25:01):
Anyone that's listening, please reach out to us. Let us know what your theory on that is. Is the fortune in the follow-up or is it just a matter that some people you'll always be chasing them? I don't know the answer.
Tara (25:14):
Yeah. I honestly think it depends a little bit on the client personality type as well in terms of, yeah, maybe they have a bit of a spicy brain and they do need to be reminded, and if it's outer sight, it's out of mind. And then there's others who are annoyed by the follow-up. I think you can definitely follow up in a respectful way just even to say, do you think you might like me to keep touching base to see how you're going? Or would you like me to stop reaching out? I think you can do it in a way that feels authentic to you. Another way of doing a follow up, which is less direct Carrie and maybe less focused one-on-one is a newsletter. So I love newsletters and that is a really good way of being front of mind and getting your message across without it being like a targeted and also the effort of the one-on-one following up as well, but just to be another hit on those seven instances that someone has to keep hearing from you if they're getting a monthly newsletter from you.
(26:27):
It's just, again, building the story. If the newsletter is done really well with a personal anecdote or story or a personal learning, it again builds that like know and trust factor. Now, you don't to do any of these, but I do see a lot of our members in the TT precedents club doing the most beautiful newsletters. Jackie at Sun Will Estates on the Sunshine Coast. I love reading hers. Angie at a JT legal at Gympie also newsletter is a bit newer, but she does a beautiful job at that as well, and I really think they're going to get a lot of traction from having that regular correspondence.
Carrie (27:10):
I think that's a good point. I mean, I personally, I'm on the other side. I hate constant newsletters and again, I read the one, but maybe you could turn that to be a personalised thing. If I've sent you my pricing and I haven't heard from you, I'll send you an email saying, Hey, Tara, attached this to information about things to think about in estate planning. If you're having difficulty deciding if you want to proceed, here's some information I thought I might share with you, making it more personalised and element like that rather than being a monthly kind of email out. It's a part of a strategic follow up. Totally.
Tara (27:42):
There's so many ways you can do it, especially now with email scheduling on an individual recipient timeline, so you could almost automate it too. I think automating a lot of this stuff is really going to help us get out out of our way and over the fear of like, oh, am I hassling them or they don't want to hear from me If you've automated it so that you send out the quote in your workflow, and then if you haven't heard back in one month and there's an email that you've written on the lines that you just said, that's not something you just write at once, and then that's your standard email that goes to every client who hasn't returned their fee proposal within one month, and then you set the interval, you set the reminder and it just kind of happens automatically. And once they accept the free proposal, they get out of that workflow and that email reminder system, that's another genius way to do it so that you can keep following them up and they can opt out of getting it as well and say, thanks. We're not going ahead ever. See you later. Stop contacting me.
Carrie (28:44):
There's real estate agents that follow you for 10 years. Have you thought about selling your house?
Tara (28:49):
Yeah, exactly. We do not want to be the pesky real estate agent. It's a really fine line, isn't it? Because sometimes you need someone to hold your hand. And I mentioned back that situation when I went through a huge relationship breakdown and didn't go ahead with the recommendations from my financial advisors statement of advice. I really wish they had kept following me up. I wish they had kept pestering me to the point that I had just said, look, I'm overwhelmed. And we could have worked it out because now looking back, it would've been really handy to have followed their advice instead. I kind of sat on it for, I think it ended up being five years or something. I lost all the compounding benefits of that. So it's a fine line between sometimes people do need a little bit of help to get over the hurdle to go ahead and it's got nothing to do with price.
Carrie (29:49):
Don't take it personally. That's
Tara (29:50):
Fine. Yeah. Well, yeah. I think the other things I've written down is please do not doubt your pricing if your matters are taking a little while to convert. Remember, there's so many other factors, and it's probably not your pricing. One of the lawyers that Carrie and I used to work with used to say this thing, we had a pricing council where when we were sending out a quote, this was before price lists were on the website, you'd put together a unique quote for the customer or client and you'd email it out, and if they came back within a few hours and accepted it, he'd always say, oh, we were too cheap. He's like, I want them to have to think about can we get this together? Are we going to make it happen? Now? Look, I don't know how that sits with me now ethically, because I think you set your prices based on a whole factor of things, and I want pricing to be win win, but you have to think if you're converting 99% of your matters and they're all like, oh yeah, no worries, then maybe you aren't capturing all the value that you're delivering or there is a value mismatch, perhaps.
Carrie (31:07):
Tara, interesting comment. I know a couple of different people that are cost assessors and just a comment that I've heard when they go through, they've actually found out that in a lot of cases, lawyers are undercharging, they're not capturing their time properly. And I just find that really odd. We are so careful with the way we have to do pricing, and so we should be, we're guardians for the community of their legal rights. But I found that really interesting and I wonder whether there's what the statistics are or who aren't pricing themselves well, whether there's a certain demographic of people that aren't backing the numbers behind what they're doing. I mean, we are constantly talking about pricing in the TT precedents club, and every now and again, there'll be someone sort of posting saying, Hey, this is what I'm charging for X, am I charging enough? And then you see six other people that are charging sometimes twice what you're charging. So I think it's really interesting that you're right. You've got to back your numbers and if you are getting a high conversion rate, maybe look at whether those numbers are working for you backwards as well.
Tara (32:11):
Yes, that's a great point. And Carrie, you just reminded me in terms of the undercharging point. So a few weeks ago we brought in an accountant, a wonderful lady, Andrea Pierce of dream accounting, and she talked to us all in the TT precedents club and most importantly gave us her magic spreadsheet, which actually helps you calculate what your break even price should be for your planning services so your firm can make a profit or not, and including paying yourself and paying your super and all your entitlements and everything. And that is such a important exercise, I think, for any law firm owner to go through to make sure that yeah, you're not undercharging and that you are being able to pay yourself value and break even at the end of the year. So I will just mention that as an amazing resource for our TT Precedent club members. But look, for me, there's a couple of things I just want to round out and say. Estate planning is big business. So there's statistics that have come out recently from the Stone Financial Review. They're expecting wealth transfers of over $5 trillion. That's trillion. I don't even know how many zeros that is by 20 29, 5 years time. That sounds
Carrie (33:37):
Like a lot of maths for me, Tara. I don't do maths
Tara (33:41):
Nearly 5 trillion in five years time. That's big business. That's a huge industry. And they are expecting that those numbers are set to quadruple by 2050. So in 26 years, 25 years from when we're recording now, what do
Carrie (33:59):
That mean with that woman with the maths things behind her? She's trying to calculate things. That's me at the moment because I'm sorry, Mr. Burton. Sure. From your eight, I'm terrible at maths still. Look,
Tara (34:09):
Take home message is it's a huge industry and there's a lot of people who need our help. That said, I want each and every person listening to this who is an estate planning lawyer to have a wildly profitable and abundant estate planning business whilst serving your clients and doing the very best that you can for them. This has got to be a win-win situation. And when you are in that win-win pricing zone, it means you can focus on delivering exceptional tailored estate planning solutions for your clients whilst personally having the time and freedom to either invest more into getting to know your clients and customising the service or going to the sports carnival, volunteering for the prep school excursion, whatever it is, filling up your cup so that you have time to keep reinvesting back into your clients and back into yourselves and your business and your clients.
Carrie (35:10):
Absolutely, Tara, neither of us are here saying, we want you to make lots of money so you can drive around in a Mercedes like a douche bag, right? We are here because we want you to be able to be the best version of yourself so that you can deliver the best products to your clients. We're not here out. We are very much aware that we are really highly responsible for the care of people. It's kind of like a doctor we have. It is a higher calling, and if anyone's not taking it that way, they probably shouldn't be practising . But I think there's a way to do that in a way that takes care of you so that you can take care of your clients.
Tara (35:45):
Yes, preach, carry, and we are seeing that in the TT precedents club because when members are able to fill up their cup and stop going from putting out this fire, I have to put out that fire. I don't have time to eat lunch. I don't have time to go to the toilet, to actually being able to approach their matters with care and consideration. They're innovating in the way that they communicate to clients. They're coming up with unique service delivery solutions, amazing flyers, like doing everything to level up their client and customer experience. And it is just an absolute joy to watch. And I think the first thing, the very first step to being in that space is pricing confidence. So yeah, that's probably really what's motivated this whole episode, even though we've gone through how hard it is to get the courage and the balls to embark on the estate planning exercise, it's really about us as practitioners backing ourselves and having confidence to charge our value.
Carrie (36:49):
I'm going to say have the boobs too, not the balls too. I want to add in this option for femininity.
Tara (36:55):
Yeah. Sorry, I shouldn't have said that, should I? That was
Carrie (36:59):
Everyone who's had boobs know how awkward they are, so yeah, rather than have the balls to do something, have the boobs to do something, guys.
Tara (37:07):
Yeah, totally. And it does. It takes huge courage to embark on the estate planning process, and I think it's so important to recognise that for our clients, the ones who do take the action, and then the ones who are still on the fence and might need a little bit of reminding or a little push or just a little bit of grace and patience. So if you have any insights that you want to share with us, please send it through. Carrie, anything else you want to wrap up with?
Carrie (37:34):
No, no. I'm just sad. I had to think about maths on a Wednesday. I'm so sorry.
