Tara (00:56):
Welcome back! This is episode five of the Art of Estate Planning Podcast, Things Your Clients Hate. And Carrie, this episode is brought to you by the email I got from my accountant at 6:00 PM on a Friday night sending me a PAYG instalment of $50,000 that I was not expecting. And I had to stew all weekend to be like, I should say I was expecting it, but I was expecting it to be like in 10 months time. So I was like, is this for real? Is this a mistake? And the whole weekend I was just waiting and then I didn't hear back till Monday and I was like, the timing was really bad. I was just running through my head for two whole days.
Carrie (01:51):
It's like when your boss sends you an email on the weekend saying I want to speak to you on Monday, what do they think is going to happen? How are you going to feel about that? You've got to sit with it until Monday. I can't swear. I think I can swear on this podcast, but literally pooping yourself.
Tara (02:08):
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? They're not thinking it's really thoughtless and I've changed accountants, so there was just a lot they can feedback. No, it was just a long line of things, but just that type of thing. I was like, oh, I'm just not enjoying this relationship and it was enough for me to change. So yeah, this is all about taking those experiences and learning what can we do with our own client processes and systems and things that we probably haven't ever turned our mind to that can affect our client relationships. So we are turning the negative energy to be constructive, but we are also using this as a chance to just have a whinge.
Carrie (02:53):
Yeah, I'm half English, Tara. I'm pretty sure whinge should be my middle name. So I'm pumped and I've seen your list of things to whinge and I think Jared, I hope you listened to the last episode, but I think Jared's going to be happy today, so I'm ready. I'm ready for it.
Tara (03:11):
Alright, well yeah, hit me.
Carrie (03:14):
Well, one of the things I saw on your list is about pricing and I saw her on your list that you don't like that people make things GST exclusive and hide the GST. And the reason why I think this is a really good discussion is because I used to agree with this, but then when I worked closely with business clients, they don't want to see the GST, they don't care. GST is a nothing thing to them. So I just found that really interesting that because I got so much flack for having GST inclusive, they wanted to see GST exclusive prices.
Tara (03:52):
That is interesting.
Carrie (03:53):
Yeah, because I agree with you as an individual, I want to know what I'm going to have to cough up. I don't want to find the surprise 10% that on a four grand bill that a $400 is a lot of money for a family. But yeah, just the feedback I got at the time was about you wanting to have GST free in the actual number that's shown. I find that odd
Tara (04:18):
Look, I can see where you are a business. I'm in both camps, right? I run the Art of Estate Planning as a business and so I know that we'll get the credit for the GST, but also as a end user customer of services, I want to know what the real price is. I don't want that that 10% can make a big difference. As you said, you think it's $4,000 and then extra, it's almost $4,500 and you're like, whoa, what? And then I feel embarrassed too when I'm like, hold on, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. And then it's because of that tiny attention to detail.
Carrie (04:58):
Yes. Do you think in pricing it should be, can you say like 4,000 plus GST or should you just say 4,400 and then in brackets or something later saying prices are inclusive of GST. What do you think works there?
Tara (05:11):
If you're trying to cater to both? I think firstly you have to work out who's your main customer demographic and if it's mom and dad's, then I would just do the GST inclusive price. They're not getting a credit. If it's a combination of business owners and that, then maybe, I dunno, could you do an invoice where the quote it like an invoice and do 4,000 and then align for GST and then the total price. So there's just absolutely no ambiguity. I dunno,
Carrie (05:44):
I just think it's interesting. I saw that on your list and I was like, that's interesting because I've had that feedback. It's the other way around. But I think that it comes back to that point of knowing your client, and I don't think that you can do a cookie cutter for every single client. I think you've got to tailor things specifically to their needs because it shows, that's another one of my pet hates, which is on my list, is feeling like you're just one of a number. If I came to you for a professional service that is tailored to me. If I wanted something cheap and feeling like I was just a number, I'd just go to an online will provider and get my cheap and nasty and be very much one of a number. So I think showing your clients that you are listening to them and you are providing your services to them is really important.
Tara (06:39):
I've got another one about invoicing. I don't think there's only a few invoicing billing ones, but so we'll get them out of the way. If you are doing a range or an estimate instead of a fixed price, what I hate is where they give you a range and there's like, I don't know, $500, a thousand dollars between the range and then you bill at the very top of the range. I guarantee you, me as a client, I've remembered the bottom range. So then I'm like, oh, it's going to be the lowest end and then the invoice comes in for the top of the range or even higher. That really drives me bonkers as well. I just think ranges are really dangerous because the lawyer remembers the top range, the client
Carrie (07:27):
Remembers the bottom and someone's going to be unhappy. I mean, Tara, I've got something really controversial to say about that generally, which is on my list. I'm ready for the hate emails and please direct them to me, not Tara. I actually think that one of the things that people hate is time billing when you could be fixed. Yes.
(07:48):
Do you know, I don't know many clients, sorry, individual clients that aren't super sophisticated, so they're not squillion dollar businesses going to high-end law firms for complex environmental law advice. This is like a mom and dad. They don't want to see six minute increment for one email that you sent. That means nothing to them. It doesn't mean any service to them at all. I think that one of the biggest things is we need to be a bit more client friendly in the way we're delivering services. And I think a big part of that for, again, very dependent on the client when it comes to law generally, but the law that we do is a personal kind of law. And I think that that concept of time billing is something that's going to be lost on future generations of individuals that I just think if you can fixed fee, why are we saying it might be somewhere between 2,002 million if you've been doing your job for that amount of time, your skills and experience should help you to build a fixed free pricing schedule to say this is exactly what we are going to do for you and this is exactly what it costs.
(08:54):
Now I am not saying you then have to go and do things for them. Like people say, oh, what about if this comes up, that's when you re-scope because it's not in your original scope. So I think that's an entirely different discussion and we could probably make a lot of people angry talking about that, but I do think that there are some really simple kind of tasks that we could do that are a time bill that could be fixed fee.
Tara (09:16):
Yes, we should make that as a separate topic. I think we could be here all day. I know, but yeah, what do they say? For customer service you should surprise and delight your clients. But yeah, sending a bill based on time billing that they have no idea what it's going to be for. It is a surprise, but no one's delighted by that. That's the worst kind
Carrie (09:39):
Of surprise. It's like when your family drop in unexpectedly. Oh, it's a surprise. All right. It's not what I want, but it's a surprise.
Tara (09:46):
Yeah. Okay. Well the last one is I don't like getting, I never send an invoice or a bill unless it's an automated thing that I don't have control over on a Friday night or even on a Friday or anytime where I'm not going to be available. And I think also that possibly goes for bad news as well. An email that's unexpected news like a big PAYG bill or an invoice or a bad outcome. I just think don't send it in a time when you are not going to be around to respond to the email or have a phone call about it.
Carrie (10:25):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I know we used to work somewhere that said don't send emails after a certain time much at all on a Friday, but I don't know how I feel about that. Sometimes Friday afternoon can be the best time to get work done because most people are off partying, so it's silent, it's radio airwaves are shut down. But I think I agree when it comes to money stuff or bad news, I think it's a bit harsh to drop that on a person on a Friday night if they can't then pick up the phone, which kind of rolls nicely into one of my pet peeves that I think, again, Jared, we're very proud. I know that we're going to have a different feeling on this is I think one of the worst things lawyers can do is not answer a phone. And the reason why I think you and I are going to disagree on this is because Tara, for those that are listening at home is incredible with boundaries, you've got to email her schedule a meeting, book it in, which I am in constant awe of because I think that Tara is out there living her best life.
(11:21):
But for me, I think that lawyers make ourselves a little bit too unavailable. And sometimes for people, particularly older generations that dunno how to use Calendly. And I think that I've heard stories about lawyers making calls in lunchtime and then clients would have to call them back during the lunchtime and then they can keep ticking down the notes of the work they've done to kind of do email chasing and phone call chasing. And I just like for me, from a client perspective, you think about it, if you need to call someone to talk about something that is really important to you, which if estate planning isn't important to you, I don't know what planet you're on because it should be important, but if you want to speak to a human, it's really, really difficult If that's a really stressful time of your life. I mean obviously we're talking about planning here so it's a little bit easier, but we have a lot of people that do a state admin and the state litigation and so things happen and you really need to be able to speak to a lawyer. So that's my controversial thing is to not make yourself so unavailable that you can't pick up a phone. I know that you're on the slightly other end of that, Tara, where I know you don't answering the phone and I agree to a certain amount, you need to set those boundaries, but I'll let it loose so we can make Jared proud.
Tara (12:41):
No, look, I totally agree that you should be available. I personally don't like talking on the phone. That's just me getting in the way. And I think a big part of that is because I'm not in the office all the time. I'm doing a massive juggle. I've got my kids there. If I don't have my kids, then my time to myself is super precious and I've had jam packed in my eyes and my self-care or my work or whatever, but that's no excuse. And I wrote down, actually, one of my things I hate is emails that should have been a phone call. So I totally agree on that. Yes, I think it's a really fine line and a balance and you've got to get what works for you. One of the things as well I think is I get, as the people pleaser I am, I get caught on the phone. So something that I don't even prepare wills anymore, but people still phone me up from Google or whatever saying, can you prepare my will? And then I get caught on the phone and suddenly half an hour's gone on a that all I needed to do was refer on and if they had left a message, then someone in my team could carry probably cloud and pointed them in the right direction. So yeah, it's more like a reflection of me and my
Carrie (14:03):
Crazy lifestyle. As I said, I think there's a balance though, as you said, and I think too, it's very different. You have people screaming, mom, I'm at you all day. So the concept of silence is a dream to you. Whereas I live in silence all day other than little pause shuffling around. So someone rings me sometimes like, Hey, I'm up for a chat. Yes, let's talk about this. So you don't think lonely cat lady, I'm living that storyline. I think that again, it comes back to that point catering to what your clients' needs are. Like if you are emailing a little old lady at home, I had this happen recently. A little old lady came to one of the firms I consult to get some estate administration done, and the firm was an entirely virtual firm and I had to follow the virtual firm process, but in the end I said to her, I think you need to go to a law firm where you can go in. We're trying to do VOI and VOI externally to a little old lady. It was witchcraft to her. So I think catering to your client's needs and if you can't cater to their needs, that's where you go, here's my next friend who can actually cater to those needs. So the phone calls being a big thing as well. You mentioned before Calendly.
Tara (15:24):
So I love Calendly. I also, because I'm scared of the phone, I also hate phoning up whether it's for an appointment or a dentist appointment or doctor's appointment or whatever. I hate calling up and being like, does this date work for you? Oh, how about this date? I want to see the online calendar and work out. What dates can I do? Does that line up? Okay, what am I willing to compromise or negotiate on? I just hate the back and forth trying to book an appointment where you can't see. So again, know your client, but I love the option of having the online booking system and what I even do now because my work availability is so scattered. And also when I had my Calendly diary on my website, I was getting people who needed their wills done just booking in. And then I was like, what's this about? Oh no, I'm not the right, this is going to be a waste of everyone's time. So now what? I still use Calendly, but I use it mostly to set up the schedule a unique meet or a one-off, I think is the word. They use a one-off meeting. And so then if I need to have a chat with someone, I'll be like, okay, here's the six times I'm free. And put those times in and send it to them and then they can just choose away. Tara did this to me recently,
Carrie (16:47):
Guys. She did it to me. Oh, did you like it or did you hate it? No, no. I think I'm the same if I can book in online, but there are times as well where you're driving and you're like, I can't get on a phone, but I need to call X, Y, Z and book in a meeting. So I think you've got to have those options. It just depends on the particular time. But when I get first introduced to someone, I'll send the new email saying, Hey, great to meet you. I'd love to have a quick chat with you. Are you welcome to call my mobile number below? If you're the sort of person that would like to prefer to book a time, here's my unique link to find a time that suits you. So that way I'm kind of feeling like they don't feel like they can't pick up the phone and call me, but I'm also directing them because then they can see, well, I can either chase back and forwards about different times or I can just go in and book in and it's done.
Tara (17:35):
So I had this experience recently with my naturopath and it was like in six weeks time you have to book the next follow-up appointment to see how you're going and if any of the witchcraft has worked and all of that. And it's in the email with the here's the plan. And then I'm like, how do I book the meeting in six weeks time? Do I have to call up or email you? And what would've worked beautifully is the online link to the naturopath's calendar where I could just find the day that works for me and book it in while I was reading the recommendation. So I just think have book in here or phone us up or whatever. But I love an online calendar. In fact, I will not choose a dentist or a doctor's surgery without an online calendar. I hate having a call up so much
Carrie (18:33):
That is such a younger generation thing, right? Younger we're 40.
(18:38):
Sorry, am I one year younger than you?
(18:41):
You are. Are everyone, just take note. Tara is one year younger than me. But yeah, the millennial urge to not talk to someone is very, very large. But if we're dealing with anybody older than that, generally speaking, a lot of those people like to call. So I think having the options catering to your particular client base is important.
(19:00):
Yeah. Alright. What's next on your list?
(19:02):
Next on my list? And again, I'm probably going to get added a lot for this, so feel free to let me know your feelings. I think that this concept of what I call an ivory tower service, I think that again, legal practises are going to have to get a lot and I think they have become a lot more flexible since covid.
(19:22):
But this concept of the client always has to trek into your office in the city, which is, I mean Brisbane has one of the most expensive parking costs in the CBD in anywhere in the world. I think I read somewhere once. So I think this concept of you have to come into our big fancy office where you can see where your fees are going. They're going into our expensive lounge room. And I think that again, trying to cater that service to clients. I have what I call a virtual kind of office, which means I do online meetings and I can actually go to you or go to your advisor. I did have an office space for a while, but I was actually really surprised at how few people wanted to come into an office when I said to them, I could come to you, just their minds exploded and thought, that's amazing. Yes, please come to me. So I think when we're actually delivering our services physically, finding ways to actually do that rather than sitting in tower, an ivory tower in the city.
Tara (20:23):
Yes, I totally agree. Especially with a practise type estate planning, perhaps if you are doing mergers and acquisitions or huge tax advice or something in the corporate sphere where they're like, okay, I want to know. There's a huge amount of legitimacy and I don't know, suits behind the screen here or something, but estate planning is personal and it's personal relationship and rapport with the lawyer. And I think you do not need to have the fancy office and the bells and whistles or the suits. I mean, I haven't worn a suit for five, 10 years or something. I actually think even wearing suits in estate planning conversations is intimidating. And this is not where you have to be that intimidating lawyer. Absolutely.
Carrie (21:17):
I mean, I attended a lot of how to be a better professional for the dental industry when I was in dentistry many moons ago, and they tried to teach you this sort of concept, what we call transference, which is like what you see you associate with that person. So if you see a fancy couch and a nicely put together person in a suit, you're going to think, wow, they're professional. I think we've moved away from that now. We are seeing now that people aren't that kind of exactly what you see. Putting someone in a suit doesn't mean you're any better at being a lawyer. And so I did not have suits
Tara (21:53):
On the list here. This is not meant to attack anyone wearing a suit. I love my suit. I
Carrie (21:59):
Got myself a nice pair of pants made last year and it was honestly amazing. But I think that making yourself accessible is what we're talking about here. So accessible through emails, through phone calls, through how you come across, which probably leads on nicely to my next point, Tara, which don't sound like a lawyer in what you're emailing your client. You read some of those cases here with fourth herein before y oldie kind of English. And I think that it doesn't communicate any better with the client what you're trying to say, number one. But also it's kind of offputting because we're a bunch of jokes about the way that we communicate. A lot of people say they like working with me because I'll give it to them in plain English. And so I think when we're talking about this is everything from, obviously our actual legal documents have to be the legal jargon. I get that. But how we deliver those legal documents doesn't have to be legal jargon. We have to say the essential things that need to go in to kind of tick all the boxes from a client understanding perspective and from a thank you very much law society and insurer perspective, but the way that you are giving that information to your client is super important to both their understanding and also just keeping a client happy.
Tara (23:24):
Yes. I have to say I am the worst customer because I am always critiquing and thinking how this could have been way better. And on that point exactly, with my naturopath, I think I got a seven page rambling of what's wrong and how are we fix it and what to take. And it's like take these supplements and this and do this thing. But it was woven in between the pages and I was like, where's the executive summary? Where's the, just take these ones in the morning and these ones at night and this is how many, it would not have been hard for them to do that. And it would've made the whole experience 10 times better for me. And I've gone through and highlighted what I think I need to do, but I'm not even confident I'm doing it. It's like executive summary, please. It's not hard for us to give that to the client and it makes the world of difference bagging this naturopath. But I do really like her. I just think everyone gets too focused on what they're the subject matter expert on and they don't think about the customer experience, but it really, it's a complete package and
Carrie (24:44):
A complete process from the customer side of things. And when you think about it, I mean, as you said, I don't imagine you would see anything other than a great naturopath. So even if she's a great naturopath, how is that converting into happy clients if we're here about building our businesses and also making sure that our clients are informed, we want to deliver not just services to lots of people for business. We want to deliver really good services for humans. That's our job as lawyers is to give good services. And I think a big part of a good service is telling the people the information they need to know to make the decisions that they need to make and people eat with their eyes. So if you've got this long-winded document that might fit within the costs agreement terms of the law society or whatever else, I think there's ways we can get more creative with that to keep happy clients and to keep informed clients.
Tara (25:36):
Yeah, totally. And yes, you have to do a written advice sometimes to protect yourself for the accountant who's reading it or whatever. There's reasons we have to do that, but then also how can we make this more user friendly for the client?
Carrie (25:52):
Yeah. Have you got any on the things that clients hate list, Tara?
Tara (25:57):
Yeah, I've got more.
Carrie (25:59):
Sometimes I think it's just me, the things client hates, so I'll let you take the floor now. I've been leading this are things that I think clients hate.
Tara (26:08):
Well, another thing when I'm a client is that I hate repeating information. So whether it's, firstly, I hate going through the process of handing over all this information, whether it's to a financial advisor, an accountant, it's the same with the lawyer. We often ask for all this background information. I hate it when you turn up and it's clear they haven't looked at it and you've gone to all that effort and then they're asking you stuff and you're like, well, that's there. I gave you a diagram of my structures and my family tree. Don't ask me how old my kids are. Have you got the family tree there? So I hate repeating myself. I just think it's really disrespectful and I also hate it when you go to a new doctor patient form or whatever, and they make you, you've already filled in the information about your address and your date of birth and all of that stuff. When you booked the call or I think I'm thinking of the Skin Clinic, the Skin Cancer Check clinic. They made me do this. I had to fill in all this personal data to book the appointment, and then when I turned up, there was a blank new patient form and it wasn't. And I was like, what? You want me to sit here and hand write all of this again? I know I've given you this information. I just find that so disrespectful.
Carrie (27:29):
I had the same experience this year where actually forced me to change medical practitioners because I was going for something to a specialist and my other medical practitioner had sent a very long explanation around the history of a particular issue. And I got there charging in absolute fortune and they hadn't even read it. And I'm like, I'm sorry, that's lazy. I walked out of there and just cancelled all future appointments. I went to the effort of getting my other medical practitioner to write this sort of historical list of the particular condition, and you didn't even read it. I'm paying you $800 for this appointment. So I just find that, yeah, you're right. It's something that I think that if someone's bothered to send us, even if we sort of skim read it, if it's something that we think is not relevant for the particular matter, but the client has sent it to us, ideally we read it so that we can say, if they talk about it, we can show that we actually care.
Tara (28:35):
Yeah, totally. I just think it's so rude. I personally would not have had the courage to walk out the good on you.
Carrie (28:44):
Yes. It was an interesting experience. I just didn't feel valued and I didn't feel like I was there for a very sensitive medical issue. So it's a really personal thing. The same way estate planning is that you can't show me you care enough to read a document. How can I trust you to give me the medical advice that I need? So that's the same. I think there's that element of transference again, that can happen if someone doesn't feel valued, their voice is not being heard, how can they trust what you're going to say with anything else?
Tara (29:13):
Yeah, it's almost like what you said about lawyers in their ivory tower before, because it's that arrogance, that projection of we're the arrogant expert and you are lucky to be getting an audience with me, which I, that's in the past now.
Carrie (29:34):
Tara's a reformed suit.
(29:34):
Yeah!
(29:34):
She's a refugee.
Tara (29:38):
Well, we used to work, before I met you, we used to work in an ivory tower on Eagle Street, and it was a very plush, enormous lobby. Is it lobby foyer I think is what we used to call.
Carrie (29:53):
I've been to that foyer at the time. And that was the size of my house, that foyer. So I was like, oh, wow. We know where the fees are going.
Tara (29:59):
Yeah, yeah. Well, a client did say that to me once. They were like, I came to come up and drop off the documents or do something, and they cancelled a meeting and they were like, I just took one look at what was going on here. And I was like, this is not for me. And yeah, my fees are not going necessarily to the advice, but to the machine. And at the time I was so young and naive, I was like, oh, not for us then, but I've actually come full circle. And I was like, yeah, I probably would've said the exact same thing. I completely respect that decision. And I think this is evidenced by, in our TT precedents club, we have got so many members who are running solo practitioner firms, often the virtual or no fixed office firm. And they are just absolutely killing it in their business and doing such an amazing job and connecting so well with their clients because they're focusing on the things that matter to build rapport and to be relatable, still professional, still incredibly knowledgeable and technically excellent. But when we are doing just estate planning, I don't think clients are valuing the bells and whistles and we've got to show respect back to our clients as well.
Carrie (31:17):
Agreed. Agreed. I mean, my foyer is my lounge room, which is books, cat hair, and cups of tea. I can just imagine it. That's all I've got on my list. Anything, anything else? You've got more?
Tara (31:33):
I've got two more. Of course. One is actually something that went really well. I was the client and actually they did it really well, and I thought, oh, this is just worth mentioning as a situation of where it could go badly or not. So it was at a financial advisor firm and you sort of come in and your initial conversations are with the principal or director, but in a firm like that, and I imagine for some of our bigger firm listeners here, you've got a whole team and maybe the point person is not the partner or the director. There's someone lower. And so we just had a really nice transition from the director to the point person and they did it really well. And I can just see that there's a way for that to be done really poorly where you feel like you've been punted off to someone else.
(32:30):
Yeah, I mean, what did they do? Basically, they explained it from the very beginning that they would not be our personal point of contact for everything and that their role is in the organisation and that they just come in for the really complex stuff on everyone's matters. And they keep a broad overview on it, but we would have our own other advisor who would be our contact person. And just every conversation we had, they mentioned that as you sort of go through their sales funnel, and then we just went and met them. And then when we did get the handover to our point person, they were completely up to speed. They knew everything. And it just was, I was like, okay, that's fine. Obviously I'd probably prefer to have the personalised service from the director, but that's not how your businesses run. And if that is how they're going to run it, I probably can't afford it.
(33:23):
So it worked really smoothly and I think given some thought as to how do you manage clients' expectations, how do you communicate it the whole way through? And I think maybe this ties into my last point is if you have got a customer journey process, firstly you probably should have a customer journey process set out that you map out and think through and give thought to. And then secondly, try and put yourself or someone close to you through it just so you can see and experience it. Now maybe, yeah, you're not going to sit down and give yourself an advice meeting, for instance. But another thing that has been grinding my gears is with our accountant and our tax return, there's a checklist of who's responsible for what and hand in this information. And it's a digital checklist, which I think works really great, but if you don't check off the box, you get a reminder I think every two days or something about, I
Carrie (34:34):
Don't even speak to my best friend every two days, Tara, I don't want to hear some random business.
Tara (34:39):
It's a lot. And one of them was like, I was like, oh, there's one item outstanding. And don't, the statement isn't going to be available until six weeks time. So we've done everything except this one thing, and when the statement's available, we'll upload it, and then we're getting a reminder every two or three days for six. I was like, this is too much. And I'm like, I don't even think the accountant knows they're sending out the reminder. It's like a system that's been set up, but if you don't put yourself through your system, you are not going to realise that. And that's like my husband who is not as across, as I said, I'm very organised and he's not as attention very organised is an understatement for Tara. But okay,
(35:31):
Yeah, let's just say on the spectrum of organised, Jared's on the other end. And so I'm like, what do I have to do? What's this? I'm being bombarded and I'm like, it's fine, just ignore it. But then every day he's like, what is it? Oh my God, do I have to, it's like a real destruction. And then just those little things just undermine and chip away at the quality of the relationship and your experience working with someone. So look, love or hate what we've talked about today. Everyone will have their own things that they think work really well or don't.
Carrie (36:05):
Send them in. Send us to [email protected]. Tell us what your you think clients hate, because I think this is a really interesting topic.
Tara (36:15):
And what do you hate when you are a client, but I just think the point of this episode was really just to get people being a lot more thoughtful about, we focus so much on the technical, but that customer experience can really undermine our amazing work that we're doing at the technical level. So just get those wheels turning over. What can I be more thoughtful about for my client experience? That means they really are going to be completely thrilled, delighted and surprised, and yeah, just, yeah, what are you doing inadvertently that you haven't thought about that could be rubbing clients the wrong way? And then, yeah, is it an easy fix or something that you're just, yeah, we're going to keep doing it anyway, but we know about it. Anything else to add, Carrie?
Carrie (37:03):
No, no. I think that I'd like that interaction, so if you're listening, tell me because I think that it's so valuable to share those things that people, that bug people, because again, we only experience them if we are there. And those war stories help us deliver better services to clients.
Tara (37:22):
Amen. Well, we'll sign off from there and we will see you next week.
