Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you so much for joining us in this episode of the Art of Estate Planning Podcast. We have a pretty big topic today, Carrie, and it is about pricing and competing against online will providers. So I know a lot of you listening will have a strong opinion about those online Do-It-Yourself will providers, I mean it also goes for the post office will, the template of the website that you Googled, all of it. So Carrie, hit me with your thoughts. Where do we even start with this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I have so many thoughts, but this is me generally. So I think for me, I wanted to start out from more like a positive aspect around these products because I think we're obviously going to get into the negative soon. But I think that controversially, I believe that these services have a place, I think mean we talk about our services being profitable and being high quality, and I think that is so important that we are doing that. But I also think that in particularly at the moment, we're living in a cost of living crisis. People can't afford $3000, $4,000 estate plans and they might think that their circumstances are simple as well. We'll talk about that in a moment. But certainly asking a 28-year-old to drop four grand on an estate plan when they've just bought a house that's literally a million dollars. They're paying off a hex debt, they can't afford groceries.
(02:30):
So I think that these online providers certainly provide a very valuable service to get a very simple estate, not estate plan a will in place. What I want to make really clear though is that I think they're being marketed to the whole public and are only really appropriate for a very small percentage of the public. So that's the kind of thing I wanted to talk about up first is that I do genuinely believe that they have a place, but I think that place is exaggerated in the market and obviously we're going to talk about why we believe it's exaggerated, why we think that it applies to a very small percentage of the population.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, I totally agree, Carrie. I don't think we can do this episode without acknowledging that there is a real crisis around accessibility to quality legal solutions for a lot of the public. So yeah, look, we'll just put that out there. But also my concern as you said, is that the people who do need a three or $4,000 estate plan are being lulled into a false sense of security that the online do it yourself will is going to be suitable for them. So that's probably the big thorn in my side about the way that they market it and how they're not upfront about who they're really suitable for.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I think that's good, Tara. I think to break it into those two elements is important because we're going to talk about, I think what is almost like a misleading, in my opinion, a misleading kind of concept around what those service providers are doing and then the very different argument around why it's not appropriate for people. So the concept around when you go and look at some of those online will providers, and again stressing that it's a will provider because it's not necessarily an estate plan, there is a very big difference between a will and an estate plan is that it'll say stuff like checked by Aussie lawyers or something by Aussie lawyers, and then you'll actually go into the fine print and it'll be very clear that they have absolutely enough that they've kind of washed their hands of everything once you generate it out, unless you kind of go through one of their partnered legal firms to actually have it looked at which case I imagine it is some funds to put into then to have that looked at.
(04:50):
So I just think that from, and I think that's an interesting debate for people like consumer affairs to look into around whether that is misleading because I think that when we're talking about that concept of the lay person that's not legally savvy and it says they see checked by Aussie lawyers or prepared by Aussie lawyers, yes, the template might've been, but your will might not be, and that's in the fine print. So I think that that discussion I probably, I'm not too good on. I don't want to be that negative person all the time. And I do think, again, that these have their place, but I do believe some of the advertising and some of the materials available on their websites are a little bit concerning to me. Do they border on legal services even though they're washing their hands of legal services in the fine print? I think that would be very interesting from a regulator perspective. I think we've probably got to talk also about why they're not appropriate for most people who think their circumstances are simple.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, absolutely. Carrie, I'm at the terms and conditions here for Safe will. For instance, I would say Safe Will has one of the best marketing strategies out there. They're certainly the ones I get the targeted ads for the most and it's scattered throughout their terms and conditions. But one paragraph here that's just jumping out at me is saying Safe will does not accept any responsibility whatsoever to you if your will power of attorney or the services you have purchased by our site are not legally correct or sufficient for your personal circumstances. It's like it's not even worth the paper it's written on. And of course who's going to read the terms and conditions. So they just look at the lovely ad and it's easy to get your will done, 1, 2, 3 steps off you go and then you think you're covered. And it's that false comfort on peace of mind that I just can't get past.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And that's my point as well. As I said, we as kind of people that are in the legal fraternity, we can see some of those things and read past into the fine print, but I just don't think that the average person, and particularly when they're coming from a vulnerable position doing estate planning or doing your estate plan I should say, is a really vulnerable topic. People often do a lot of things motivated by fear. And so when you see this option of, I'm terrified that this property is going to go to my new spouse, but I want it to go to my children, oh, I'll go online because it's cheap and it's easy and it's quick. So I think when they go to do that and then they see the word Aussie lawyer or Australian lawyer, that's an immediate, oh, thank goodness it's going to be okay. And so that's my real concern is that I'm not talking about sophisticated clients here or people. I'm talking about average Australians that are running from a position of vulnerability and they see these wording that makes them think or gives them, as you said, that false sense of security.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yes. I mean, you and I have had conversations around this and we'll just see how it plays out and where it goes, but we're seeing the financial services industry, they took on the fin influencers who were giving unlicensed financial advice on TikTok and Instagram. I think that industry is also now coming for the buy now pay later after pay products. I'd love to see something like that happening in this space around, not about the existence of the service we've had the post office will forever and a day. It's more around the marketing, as you said, checked by an Aussie lawyer and all of that and how I think it just leads people astray. But okay, let's leave that to the side because we could just whinge here, but let's focus on solutions. Can I just tell you a quick side? The most terrifying day of my life was when the chairman of the law firm I worked at called me on the telephone and wanted me to give him an answer or something on the spot, and I was like, oh, I just have to check this, that, and whatever. And he goes, listen, I want solutions, not problems, and then hung up left.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I'm pretty sure you said that same thing to me when I was a junior, Tara Lucke. So let's just trauma passes down generations, but I think it's true as well, right? Bring me a solution, not a problem.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It was great feedback. It totally was, but I probably could have received it in a less terrifying way. But yeah, I do want to call on that feedback now and say it's just whinging about how irresponsible these services are for 30 minutes probably isn't going to achieve anything. So what I kind of wanted to tell everybody about is to just get us in the right head space. As lawyers, we don't have to help everyone. There are going to be some clients who $150 online will could be a really good option for, and then there's clients where that is just not even worth the paper it's written on. They probably would be just as well off with the intestacy rules and they need proper considered legal advice and a holistic estate planning strategy we just talked about in our last episode about what to do with a family home and whether to put that into a testamentary trust or not.
(10:37):
So before we start letting everyone feeling discouraged or worried that these online providers are coming to eat our lunch, I really think it's worthwhile saying, you know what? The people who are going to go to an online provider, they were never my ideal client to begin with. And what we can do is get really strategic and focused on our communication and our marketing to stand out and show how much more value we add to the process over and above these online providers. So that's kind of the message that I want people to take out of this episode.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I think that's important, Tara, because we, as I said, we do want to say those services have their place, but we're not dealing with, they're not our client. And also, I'm sorry if anybody's listening and they hate my analogy, but I think it's like comparing Temu with an artisan. So if you go on and you buy something from temu, you're going to get what you're paid for, right? Good things, no cheap things, no good. So if I go on to Temu and I want to buy a ceramic work, I'm going to get a ceramic work from somewhere that probably is based on the appropriate labour laws that they have over in different countries. When I go down the road and I buy a artisan piece of ceramic from the lady who makes it in her house, I know I'm supporting their family. And for me, I think the service that she provides when I go and buy that, that's how we distinguish ourselves. I go there, she'll talk me through what she's done, how it's created, where her inspiration came from. Obviously I'm using art here, so it's a little bit silly, but I think it's that service delivery that we need to use to distinguish ourselves because again, when a person comes in, they might not necessarily know the difference automatically between a will they generate online and a will we generate. The magic is in the service and the advice piece.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yes, exactly. I have a few resources available for people or posts like social media posts that I'm happy for people to be inspired by or use if they give us credit just to help with your communication. So one of them is how to tell if you're estate planning lawyer or provider is legit, and it's just like, can they do your power of attorney or is it just do they look at your super strategy and help you with your super forms? Have they got capability for testamentary trust? Even if you don't need one, could they give you one and talk to you about why you don't need one? And lastly, do you actually have a conversation with a lawyer like one-on-one customised conversation, and it's just a little graphic for little points, but I think those types of things are helpful to start sharing or putting it on your website or on your social so that people can really see the difference and you're empowering them to understand and cut, what does it be an informed consumer and cut through the marketing. Because look, these online providers, what they're excellent at is marketing. They are blowing us all out of the water. So credit where credit's due, their marketing is amazing, and I think we can actually learn a lot from them. It's just a real shame that their product sucks.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I think mean when we talk about it too. One of the concepts I'm seeing a lot of, and I absolutely love, we've got a lot of people in our TT Precedents club who do this. They're putting the heart back into estate planning. We have people like Lucy and Jackie as examples. I see their socials and Angie as well. I see them and I'm like, that's a person I want to work with and I know that they care about me and they care about the issues I've got. So I think putting that personal element in it as well, I think we've long passed those generations of law where lawyers were these stuffy people that wore suits all the time and spoken really strange languages and unapproachable, uncontactable, all those sorts of things. So I really love what we're seeing in a lot of the people that we work with and certainly encourage you that if you're looking for that, go online, have a look at some of the lawyers that are doing it a little bit differently. They're putting that emotion and putting that personal element back into it.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, amazing point, Carrie, because I think you said to me just before we jumped on, you had seen that safe will have been having free wills, I think it's Wills will or something they call it. Yeah, right. They're giving them away for free at the moment, they're partnering with charities and the wills are free. So if you can get a free will, why doesn't a hundred percent of the population have their will done? And I think the reality is that there is so much that goes into that decision to embark on getting your estate planning sorted. Like we talked about in our earlier episode, people are still not getting their wills done when they are free. They can't even give these things away. So what that tells me is that potential clients, they need to see something more. It's not just the price point. It's not even necessarily quick just do it on your phone while you're watching tv.
(16:00):
They need something more to get them past that inertia to open up that vulnerability and go into the process. And so I just think we are not even playing the same game. I'm not a sports person. I was like, we're not even in the same ballpark. But yeah, that's probably the extent of my sports analogy, but we are not in the same league. We're not even playing the same game here. We should I think, just try not to let the existence of these online providers get us down or feel like we have to compete on price or even technology. We are just in a different ballpark and our service is a completely different offering.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I think what was another point I had, Tara as well, when we're talking about services and how we can direct that to showing them the value is one of the beautiful things about doing estate planning is that if you're doing it well, you are working collaboratively with their other advisors. So a lot of people don't realise the way that things are structured financially has a really big impact on what actually happens or should happen under your estate plan. And if you don't have that underlying knowledge, which is why you have people like accountants, lawyers, and financial advisors, if they're all working together, which is a part of a really good estate planning process, I think that shows the client, a lot of those people are in a really high position of trust when we're talking about accountants and financial planners. So if we're showing those potential clients that we can work collaboratively with their advisors, that usually gives them that element of comfort and trust knowing that we're here to listen and we're here to listen to the people that matter to you. So I think that that is another really important point that as humans, we connect with other humans.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, so I guess my main message from this is don't really pay attention to what the online will providers are doing run your own race. But we can, I think, learn something from them in the way that they approach their marketing. And we can also take a step back if it is starting to get you down a bit or you feeling disillusioned, maybe take a step back and just go, look, what am I doing on my marketing front? Carrie, your suggestion about fostering those referrals from other professionals. That's amazing. And I know some people listening, their whole marketing strategy and clients all come from referrals, which I think is a beautiful place to be in, and I think we all aspire to that. But yeah, if you've got leads coming from referrals, they're already pre-vetted, they already are sold on you, and you've got the financial advisor in that trusted relationship sort of pushing them through the process that is like the holy grail.
(18:55):
So fostering those referrals, looking at how can you approach your marketing in a way that really differentiates what you are doing to these online will providers, using that trusted advisor, focusing on those emotional elements, and then also maybe informing the client as well to letting them know how can they make an informed choice here in this day and age with the fake news and all of that, we all have to become much more savvy in what we believe and what we read on the internet. And I think helping your clients develop that sophistication around assessing what quality legal service they need for their particular circumstances, I think all of that can help just show where you are playing in the field.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I think is proof in the pudding is as we talked about those DIY wills that you can buy from the post office have been around for so long and people are still reaching out to lawyers, as has the services of public trustees that do free drafting as well. They might not have the fancy marketing or the really great online process for doing it. Those services are there and they exist, but we're not dealing with the same sort of demographic. So I think believing in yourself a little bit, putting your heart into what you're doing and showing the clients that you care, you're here to help them. I think that's what those people want. They want to know that you're not a robot behind a screen. You are an individual and you want to listen to them and deliver that service that they deserve.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Do you know I was at the post office a few weeks ago and the fellow in front of me walked up to the counter and said, can I get one of those will kits please?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Oh, no, he didn't. Not in front of the estate planning lawyer.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I was frozen on the spot. I was like, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Mind your own business.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Did you roll out the red carpet and say the Queen of Wills is here. What do you think I did? I bet you put your nose in and be like, do it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I had to.
(21:09):
Well, but I tried to be really kind about it because this was the thing. He was maybe my dad's age, and I really felt like he was just trying to do the right thing. And he'd obviously gotten up and had the initiative and momentum to go and say, I'm going to get my will sorted. And I really didn't want to step all over that and make him feel foolish or do all of those things that have deterred people from engaging with legal providers. So I just sort of said, oh, look, by the way, make sure if you've got any Super, make sure that you sort out your super nominations as well because it won't be covered by this, and you really need a power of attorney in case you lose capacity and someone to act for you on medical and financial decisions. And he was like, oh, really? And it was actually a nice conversation and he sort of walked out probably thinking he'd wasted his $15 or whatever, but I hope, I don't know. I hope. And then actually the people in the post office were like, oh, really? What about super and blah, blah, blah? And then someone in the line tried to tell me about...
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Oh, I'm ready. I'm here for it
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Not being binding anyway. And then I was like, oh gosh. I'm like, just, I'm not going to start a lecture on super and estate planning 101 in the post office. But yeah, it was really hard because I can stand here and be like, these services are totally inappropriate. They're not worth the money they're spent on that people spend on them, and they might as well just have the intestacy rules half the time. But at the same time, you can't blame a consumer for thinking it's a viable option, particularly I think the post office ones, because the post office is the only place that seems to sell them or is connected with them, it's somehow feels endorsed by the government or something. I feel a lot of empathy for consumers who don't know that what they're getting into is not really a comprehensive estate plan. So it's really complex issue. I think.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
The way that what I'm saying sold it to him though as well is I think your approach was right. You didn't just go on and say, that's rubbish because nobody responds well to negativity.
(23:50):
Attract more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. So show them, Hey, rather than poo-pooing the will, hey, just make sure that you check these other things. So a lot of your marketing strategies can be around, not necessarily, I mean, we can make jokes and memes about it, and certainly we do, but your strategy should be more like, Hey, just make sure if you're doing that, you've thought about X, Y, Z. Because if there's this little worm in their brain saying, I'm kind of doing this because I don't really know what else to do, but I wish I knew what else to do, you might've just peaked its interest. So I think that's where you can kind of upsell the value of your services is to show them, Hey, I'm going to help you look at everything, and here's a couple of other things you might not have thought about that $15 will. I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make sure you think of other things.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yes, I think that's a really important message for marketing. And so yeah, I guess I'm kind of running out of things to say here. My main message is it's not doom and gloom, and I really think that there is enough work out there for all of us and for all of us to own our position in the market and charge legitimately for our services. I think just totally ignore what these online providers are doing when it comes to a price point because it is a literal race to the bottom. They're actually giving them away. Now, that's not the market that you want to compete in, and you're not serving any one by trying to compete in that market. There's so many Australians who don't have their estate planning sorted, which is a real shame. But what it does mean is that there's so many people who need your help and they need all of your expertise, all of your heart led guidance, and they are able and willing to pay for it if we inform them and teach them what they need to know and how your service is different. And look, I guess if worse comes to worst, we can all retrain as a state litigation lawyers and just litigate all of these poorly done online wills. If it comes to that.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I can hear them rubbing their hands together, Tara, as we speak.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Sorry. And yeah, that was a bit crass at the end, but honestly, I just, what is going to happen with this estate litigation once people who made these online will start buying?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well, the value of wealth is increasing so much, Tara, that space is going to increase. So why would you want your family to be a part of it? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah. Well, and that's it. I think people just don't, they just don't know. They don't know the difference between what they can get and how inferior these online providers are. So I think for us as a legal industry, we can start educating our clients on that. I'd love our law societies to step up and take on some of that responsibility, but for now, I think it's up to us and we can do it in a kind and generous way to just show them, help them see the light, I guess. Well, we might wrap it up there. I'd love to hear from people if they have any other ideas or insights or experiences, or if you've had people do one of these online wills and then come to you. We have a free Facebook group. It's got over 2,500 Australian lawyers, financial advisors, and accountants. It's called the Art of Estate Planning. So the same as the podcast name. It's on Facebook group, sorry, it's on Facebook search groups. And we should come up, and if you're not already in there, come join us. And if you are in there and you have something you want to say on this topic, put up a post in there. And we'll keep that conversation going because this is a special interest topic for both Carrie and myself, and we're very keen to sort of see how it all plays out. So yeah, let us know. Anything else you want to add, Carrie?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
No, no. I'm just going to watch and wait and see what happens in the space, but I'm totally confident that we have that value, and it's just about communicating that with the people that are accessing those services.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Well, thank you everyone for listening. We are so honoured that you have chosen to have us in your ears, and we will see you next week.
